Yes engine development is complex. Especially when considering the tri-service F-35 requirements.
One would think that the project managers and other big-brains will get out of the current F-35 grounding which revolves around cracked turbine blades.
Let us review some F-35 engine history. Below is a 2008 briefing that deals with earlier engine failures. One comment in the brief shows that Pratt and Whitney knowledge came up short.
4 comments:
http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/national/well-buy-us-jets-despite-groundings-pm/story-e6frfku9-1226584399449
There's another aspect to the F135 Turbofan that you might find interesting --- namely, it doesn't produce 43000lbs of afterburning thrust as claimed. To see why, you need a brief history lesson on some other engines.
First, consider the fact that the F135 is structurally only an F119 with a different nozzle. That in itself entails only 35000lbs of thrust, just like the F119 --- unless you want to melt the engine, that is.
Second, the parent engine for the F135 doesn't produce that much thrust. Developed in the 1980s as the YF119, it was "rated" at 35000lbs of thrust during the ATF competition, but as late as June 1991, didn't PRODUCE this much thrust. In fact, as late as 1998, only 4% of the testing of the F-22 had been completed, indicating that the F119 engine itself still wasn't fully-developed. The very first production F119 was delivered in July of 2002, presumably with a full 35000lbs of thrust --- yet, only 3 years later, Pratt & Whitney claimed to have gotten 43000lbs of thrust out of the F135. Incredibly, no one has expressed skepticicm that P&W could suddenly yank an extra 8000lbs of thrust from an engine that had only just barely met it's original specification, after over 15 years of R&D.
Third, consider how much extra thrust *previous* engines have gained over time, and how long it took them to accumulate it;
- The P&W F100-PW-100 started-off with only 24000lbs of afterburning thrust in 1972; fast forward to 1989, and the F100-PW-229 only produced an extra 3000lbs of thrust. We're apparently supposed to believe that the F135 could gain 8000lbs more thrust over the F119 in only 3 years, when it took 17 years to squeeze an extra 3000lbs of thrust out of the F100.
- The Saturn/Lyulka AL-31 family of engines also raises doubts that an 8000lb increase in thrust in just 3 years is possible. In 1981, the Al-31F produced 27700lbs of thrust; it's latest iteration, the AL-41 of 2010, produces 33000lbs of thrust.
- The GE F404-400 produced 16000lbs of thrust on it's introduction in 1978; it's most recent development, the F414-400 of 1993, produces 22000lbs of thrust.
- The Klimov RD-33 made it's debut in 1976, with 18000lbs of thrust; by 2001 it had been developed into the RD-33MK, with 20000lbs of thrust.
- The GE F110-100 debuted in 1984, with 28000lbs of thrust; the current F110-132, introduced in 2003, produces a whopping 32000lbs of thrust.
Now consider the amount of thrust gained per-year of development for these engines, and see if something doesn't look right;
F100: 176
F110: 210
F404~414: 400
AL-31~41: 182
RD-33: 80
F119~135: 2666
♪"One of these things is not like the others!"♪
Somehow, we're supposed to believe that the F135 gained 8000lbs of thrust from it's immediate progenitor, after only 3 years of R&D, when the F110-132 that took 29 years to gain HALF as much from the F110-100.
Also, there's a bridge in Brooklyn I've got up for sale.
Moreover, consider the possibility that one of the USAF/LockMart motives for hyper-extending the F-35's development for as long as possible may be that it still doesn't produce the amount of thrust specified. This wouldn't be unprecedented --- recall the prolonged development of the F-22 and and it's F119 engine.
It also seems to have largely been forgotten that the F-35 is a modification of the X-35, which itself was rated for only 35000lbs of thrust. This was before the YF119 that powered it was certified to produce that much power, which in turn is indicative that the F-35 is not proofed to withstand 35000lbs, let alone 43000.
Here's more food for thought. That the F135 is just an F119 with a round nozzle begs the question; if the F135 really does produce this much power, why does the F-22 produce only 70000lbs of thrust from two F119s/F135? Why has it never even been PROPOSED, in the more-than-10-years that the F-22 and F-35 programs have overlapped, as of February 25th 2012? (P&W/LockMart/USAF comeback opportunity: EXPIRED!)
So in short, the notion that this engine produces 43000lbs of thrust doesn't pass muster. If it did, it would represent so immense a quantum leap in gas turbine design and development, it would have been vastly more advertised and publicized way back in 2005.
Such immense improvements only go unnoticed if they're either secret, or reported-on by a corporate media staffed by legions of journalists who don't know the first thing about what they're reporting on. Otherwise, they would have looked deeper into the F135, because when it seems too good to be true, it ALWAYS IS.
Hello Blacktail
That's very interesting what you posted. When did you find out about the F135 engine that doesn't produce 43,000lbs?
So does the F-135 engine produce the same thrust at 35,000 lbs as the F-22?
I had a look at the amount of thrust gained per-year of development for those engines. I seem to reckon it might be F119~135: 2666
Definately the F135 engine will be a very hot thirsty engine and what you said before that it'll melt the engine and may melt the parts of the airframe.
According to the GAO it'll cause damage to flight deck and runways with heat build-up and exhaust impedes the aircraft’s ability to conduct missions in hot environments, and in fact the exhaust nozzle of the F-35 will be extremely hot which will expose heat signature when the aircraft accelerates in full afterburner. The back end of the F-35 (in full afterburner) is something like 1600 degrees (Fahrenheit). In terms of temperature, aluminum combusts at 1100. You are talking about something really, really hot. For e.g. if you have got a dirty big sensor on the front of your Su-35S or your PAK-FA or whatever, it lights up like Christmas lights and there is nothing it can done. And the plume, because of the symmetric exhaust, is spreaded all over the place. It is not shielded, it is not ducted in any useful way. The Sukhois will be able to seek and destroy the F-35 when using the heat seeking BVR AA-10 (R-27) Alamo or AA-12 (R-77) Adder AAMs.
Thanks for the information you put up.
Regards
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