You could have rephrased that last sentence: "The Super Hornet is only marginly less able to take on high-end threats in the Pacific Rim region in the coming years.
And if anything been slightly more accurate than it currently reads.
Gee, what a surprise! I'm sure once the whole story is revealed we'll not doubt be treated to some "special" PowerPoint snake oil by Lockmart to attempt to keep snowing the hoards of stupid politicians on the payroll. Followed by anther flatulence filled article by Dr. Feelgood over at the Lexington Institute
Meanwhile that "big and heavy" stealth fighter being developed by China seems to be slightly more maneuverable then predicted by some in the west (LOL). It seems that between Chengdu and Sukhoi the F-35 has a questionable future.
Anyone with deep feelings (or any concerns) on this topic really should make the effort to get his hands on a copy of "Boyd, The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of War".
It WILL change the way you think about the men who rise to the top in our Defence arena, both uniformed and civilian, and the companies that provide the equipment we ask our young men and women to take into battle.
And to those defending the status quo, I can assure you, you won't like what you read.
That wasn't me earlier, but it's an interesting story if a little short on details.
It's also hardly timely given that Eurofighter released it's own "simulation" showing how easily the Typhoon beat the F-35 in air to air simulation last year.
Or this is the same one...
Big deal. Choose your marketing hype as far as I'm concerned.
It appears the Bonzas of the world care little for the defense of their fellow citizens and nations as a whole and more about polarising debate around false and misleading "marketing hype".
Anon and anon, you are both correct. Bonza is a cyber bully. He inhabits a site where everyone is allocated a uniform and title, and it makes them important as they are anonymous. If you dare question his opinion you are barred from commenting, by a “super moderator”. The thugs include the anonymous Bonza, a sycophant of apologists from DMO, the Aussie Digger, (the IT person from QLd Police) and the moronic repetitive Abe Gubler. Add the other sycophant the GF (Gary Fairlie) from DMO, and you have the idea. These people are dishonest in the extreme, in regard to their defence of the failed F35 program. You would have to question their motives. They do not have the ability to analyse anything in a rational or honest way, and do not understand an academic approach at all. In addition, who mentioned the superior Typhoon?
What this means however, is that I want to see an EM diagram of an F-35 overlaid an SU-35.
Further, I want to see lines of F-35 and a SU-35 in a 1-circle and 2-circle fit with the appropriate overlays of AIM-9x and AA-11 WEZ's.
Until then, claims by onside or the other mean nothing.
One also needs to not be blind to the fact that visual maneuvering is only and end-game option when all else has failed. How far EM theory should apply to a modern fighter design as a priority should be less important than optimizing it for it's intened role. This is of course caveated with a fighter with an EM disadvantage should always have an abort option if a losing bvr fight.
REX/Bonza , what is it about WVR, this will not occur . The Su's will be higher faster,longer ranged etc before it happens.The sensors wil be the same.The little dumpy retard will be long gone. Read History.
I brought up my war points as someone else brought up Boyd!
If you're talking BVR, how's the SU going to sprint to high and fast with a heavy, draggy 6x2 load out burning all it's fuel in the process when it's detection range will be abysmal? Or do you seriously suggest a SU will have a 50nm+ detection range on a F35?
It was only a matter of time until any advantages of stealth that the F-35 has would be eroded by the evolving AESA/L-Band AESA radar/IRST/ and net centric systems being developed in Russia and China. Maybe taking 20 years to get to IOC has some drawbacks??
The display that the Su-35 just put on at MAKS was amazing showing that the new 3D TVC gives this aircraft a level of maneuverability not seen before anywhere.
You had better hope that an F-35 gets off the first shot BVR because once it turns into a WVR knife fight the "maneuverability is irrelevant" JSF will be living a very short life.
- look it's a sim on a plane that isn't done yet. (engine performance, electronic, even fuselage is still cracking.) For all I care F-35 could be canceled in 2018, after boeing showing their proposal.
- Su-35 vs. F-35? I take Su-35 if the battle is in the next 5-10 years. Simply because F-35 is a mature technology with big room for alteration and improvement. Beside it's cheaper, 1v1 is not guarantee for F-35. Will F-35 survive 2V1 skirmish in 2014-1015? (new longer range russian missile for pakfa project will come online then.)
I think realistically
F-35C will have to face J-15 in tandem with J-20. (pacific)
F-35 in tandem with F-22 against pak-fa in Korea.
------------------- Even then, do you really think a high fast SU semi actives will out f-pole an F-35 with actives and the option to fire, go active and turn cold?
-- Once you fire, you are not going to be able to "turn cold" again. Not in 2018. (I am betting the russian will figure out how to combine AESA and low band radar.)
second, sukhoi is equipped with IR. On top of having more experience flying with IR sensor, the sensor itself will also improve considerably in the next decade. So the idea of BVR or what not will fly undetected for whole 20 second is absurd. And missile is fairly dumb. It only fly very fast. If somebody figure out faster computer and able to shoot down long range missle, entire F-35 program is over. It means it has to rely on flight performance. (It has none)
second, low and slow. If TVC plane is in defensive home territory, they will always win in low and slow, urban game. Always.
Bottom line F-35 only looks comfortable in very traditional combat parameter. (high in empty sky. equal numbers or more against enemy with inferior electronic.)
I'm curious to why you say you wont be able to turn cold in 2018?
I am always interested as well in the assumptions of the usefulness of airborne IRST. What ranges will it really be useful?
Further, JSF is a maturing program with no Eastern equivalent. Like all western fighters, it will enjoy a spiral upgrade program and will get better and better on the back of a huge established industry. The best thing out of the east today are prototypes nowhere near service entry. I believe saying the east will miraculously catch up and surpass western industry in the next 10 years is a little optimistic!
Even all things being equal allowing for the advantages of one to counter the advantages of the other, I belive the AMRAAM is the achilles heel as it is fast being matched or outclassed.
For me, based on my limited understanding, for the F35 to survive a BVR engagement, let alone be victorious, against mature threats, currently in development, the primary BVR weapon will need to have increased range & a higher kill probability to take advantage of the F35's reduced front aspect RCS & the detection ability of the APG81.
Cyber-bully? Right... AD's an IT guy? He told us all he's a police officer, not an IT guy nor a DMO guy but you probably know better than him.
GF's a project manager at DMO and Abe Gubler is a reporter. Obviously you have a problem with DT mate, but the rules unlike most forums are written in full and available to anyone who care to read them. We try to stick to them but hey no-one's perfect. No-one has ever been banned there for disagreeing with a mod though, only ublicly breaking the rules.
As for our mod status, it's a function of VBulletin forum software mate, not something I or anyone else has chosen. Ask Eric about it, he's a mod at F-16.net. They use the same software. These forums all use similar terms to donote the"rank" ie: "posting experience" of the individual poster, it's not some sort of rank structure.
I kimd of get the feeling that facts aren't really all that important to you though, lord knows your opinions don't seem influenced bybthem so I'll leave it there. Sorry Eric, last time I'll pollute the comments section this way.
"I kimd of get the feeling that facts aren't really all that important to you though, lord knows your opinions don't seem influenced bybthem " Pot calling kettle black.Facts and those mentioned do not equate in any way. Your lack of ability to exhibit intellectual honesty is staggering.
If it was Magoo, I am deeply upset at such nonsense. You have defended APA on numerous occasions, for their researched and informative articles. Those who question the program have every right to, as the preponderence of evidence does point to an inevitable failure, and APA do set out facts figures and considered argument. Most/all of those who tend to personally attack APA(more the founders) and it's contributors have NEVER produced researched and properly argued counter points. They follow each other and are sycophants in the true meaning of the word.They remain anonymous as is the usual case for such people.
If you disagree with what any publication says, reply in an informed and researched manner.
"Sorry Eric, last time I'll pollute the comments section this way. " Let us hope so.Thanks for the hands up Bonza. I have just read the comments on DT by Bonza,Gubler, ADMK2,and other misfits, and what a revolting condescending rude arrogant bunch of less than normal human beings. Those who disagree are called "stupid" etc etc. I have never in my life seen such a display. I would encourage those interested to look at the blogs commented on by these cretins.Make up your own minds. Apparently they all have titles , such as major, General etc,and I wonder if they actually dress up in uniform before turning on the computer. More thtan likely. I wonder where one hand is located whilst the other is on the keyboard. Atkinson
What a strange, pathetic little mind you have Atticus. Enjoy your fantasies mate. A curious situation that you are hanging out at the bottom of a thread all alone, discussing military uniforms and masturbation fetishes...
I'm just going to back slowly out of the room now. Don't want to upset the crazy person...
Bonza , was not me but I concuur with the comments. People who award themselves titles, wear uniforms and act as bullies obiviously have deep problems and a spare hand. Have a look at the derogatory and demeaning remarks made by you and others about those who have a different point of view on that site.DT. Abe Gubler a Journo, I can not see any regular publications? Gf0012, part of the deeply flawed and failed organisation called the DMO? 7,500 employees, a budget of 1.2 billion of public funds to do whatt? Fail.He has no right to offer informed opinion. AD, part of another failed orgaisation, with deeply flawed leadership, unable to do a proper job.
40 comments:
You will upset some parties!
Any hints on when we might find out which NATO country did this sim?
You could have rephrased that last sentence: "The Super Hornet is only marginly less able to take on high-end threats in the Pacific Rim region in the coming years.
And if anything been slightly more accurate than it currently reads.
Gee, what a surprise! I'm sure once the whole story is revealed we'll not doubt be treated to some "special" PowerPoint snake oil by Lockmart to attempt to keep snowing the hoards of stupid politicians on the payroll. Followed by anther flatulence filled article by Dr. Feelgood over at the Lexington Institute
Meanwhile that "big and heavy" stealth fighter being developed by China seems to be slightly more maneuverable then predicted by some in the west (LOL). It seems that between Chengdu and Sukhoi the F-35 has a questionable future.
http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2011/09/flap-your-wings.html
What a load of tripe!
Vague references to "simulations" and an uncredited "expert". The burden of proof's on the outrageous claims!
Were these classified simulations? What were force numbers, loadouts, detection ranges, missile ranges, adversary competency, tactics used?
About as credible as the claims of awesomely cheap and capable fulcrums and flankers monstering F-teen fighters!
Rex
"Maneuverability is irrelevant."
Bonza, you are back. The sycophants from the DMO rear their heads again
Who's bonza? My first visit here if it was a reference to my points above.
Rex
"Any hints on when we might find out which NATO country did this sim?"
It wasn't me. You didn't see me do it. You can't prove a thing.
Amicus Curiae
Anyone with deep feelings (or any concerns) on this topic really should make the effort to get his hands on a copy of "Boyd, The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of War".
It WILL change the way you think about the men who rise to the top in our Defence arena, both uniformed and civilian, and the companies that provide the equipment we ask our young men and women to take into battle.
And to those defending the status quo, I can assure you, you won't like what you read.
That wasn't me earlier, but it's an interesting story if a little short on details.
It's also hardly timely given that Eurofighter released it's own "simulation" showing how easily the Typhoon beat the F-35 in air to air simulation last year.
Or this is the same one...
Big deal. Choose your marketing hype as far as I'm concerned.
It appears the Bonzas of the world care little for the defense of their fellow citizens and nations as a whole and more about polarising debate around false and misleading "marketing hype".
Why is that Mr Bonza?
Told you it was Bonza.
Anon and anon, you are both correct. Bonza is a cyber bully. He inhabits a site where everyone is allocated a uniform and title, and it makes them important as they are anonymous.
If you dare question his opinion you are barred from commenting, by a “super moderator”. The thugs include the anonymous Bonza, a sycophant of apologists from DMO, the Aussie Digger, (the IT person from QLd Police) and the moronic repetitive Abe Gubler. Add the other sycophant the GF (Gary Fairlie) from DMO, and you have the idea.
These people are dishonest in the extreme, in regard to their defence of the failed F35 program. You would have to question their motives.
They do not have the ability to analyse anything in a rational or honest way, and do not understand an academic approach at all.
In addition, who mentioned the superior Typhoon?
Big fan of 40 second Boyd.
What this means however, is that I want to see an EM diagram of an F-35 overlaid an SU-35.
Further, I want to see lines of F-35 and a SU-35 in a 1-circle and 2-circle fit with the appropriate overlays of AIM-9x and AA-11 WEZ's.
Until then, claims by onside or the other mean nothing.
One also needs to not be blind to the fact that visual maneuvering is only and end-game option when all else has failed. How far EM theory should apply to a modern fighter design as a priority should be less important than optimizing it for it's intened role. This is of course caveated with a fighter with an EM disadvantage should always have an abort option if a losing bvr fight.
Rex
REX/Bonza , what is it about WVR, this will not occur . The Su's will be higher faster,longer ranged etc before it happens.The sensors wil be the same.The little dumpy retard will be long gone.
Read History.
Sorry ELP, forgot to mention
"Maneuverability is irrelevant."
I brought up my war points as someone else brought up Boyd!
If you're talking BVR, how's the SU going to sprint to high and fast with a heavy, draggy 6x2 load out burning all it's fuel in the process when it's detection range will be abysmal? Or do you seriously suggest a SU will have a 50nm+ detection range on a F35?
Rex
Even then, do you really think a high fast SU semi actives will out f-pole an F-35 with actives and the option to fire, go active and turn cold?
Rex
Yes
Then someone needs a lesson in vector addition!
Rex
It was only a matter of time until any advantages of stealth that the F-35 has would be eroded by the evolving AESA/L-Band AESA radar/IRST/ and net centric systems being developed in Russia and China. Maybe taking 20 years to get to IOC has some drawbacks??
The display that the Su-35 just put on at MAKS was amazing showing that the new 3D TVC gives this aircraft a level of maneuverability not seen before anywhere.
You had better hope that an F-35 gets off the first shot BVR because once it turns into a WVR knife fight the "maneuverability is irrelevant" JSF will be living a very short life.
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2011/08/video-flanker-flexes-muscle-in.html
my random take (I am bearish on F-35):
- look it's a sim on a plane that isn't done yet. (engine performance, electronic, even fuselage is still cracking.) For all I care F-35 could be canceled in 2018, after boeing showing their proposal.
- Su-35 vs. F-35? I take Su-35 if the battle is in the next 5-10 years. Simply because F-35 is a mature technology with big room for alteration and improvement. Beside it's cheaper, 1v1 is not guarantee for F-35. Will F-35 survive 2V1 skirmish in 2014-1015? (new longer range russian missile for pakfa project will come online then.)
I think realistically
F-35C will have to face J-15 in tandem with J-20. (pacific)
F-35 in tandem with F-22 against pak-fa in Korea.
-------------------
Even then, do you really think a high fast SU semi actives will out f-pole an F-35 with actives and the option to fire, go active and turn cold?
--
Once you fire, you are not going to be able to "turn cold" again. Not in 2018. (I am betting the russian will figure out how to combine AESA and low band radar.)
second, sukhoi is equipped with IR. On top of having more experience flying with IR sensor, the sensor itself will also improve considerably in the next decade. So the idea of BVR or what not will fly undetected for whole 20 second is absurd. And missile is fairly dumb. It only fly very fast. If somebody figure out faster computer and able to shoot down long range missle, entire F-35 program is over. It means it has to rely on flight performance. (It has none)
second, low and slow. If TVC plane is in defensive home territory, they will always win in low and slow, urban game. Always.
Bottom line F-35 only looks comfortable in very traditional combat parameter. (high in empty sky. equal numbers or more against enemy with inferior electronic.)
None of it is a guarantee in 2018.
I'm curious to why you say you wont be able to turn cold in 2018?
I am always interested as well in the assumptions of the usefulness of airborne IRST. What ranges will it really be useful?
Further, JSF is a maturing program with no Eastern equivalent. Like all western fighters, it will enjoy a spiral upgrade program and will get better and better on the back of a huge established industry. The best thing out of the east today are prototypes nowhere near service entry. I believe saying the east will miraculously catch up and surpass western industry in the next 10 years is a little optimistic!
Rex
@Rex
JSF is small design - the product of the STOVL.
It has no growth margin in volume, weight, electrical power or cooling and limited growth in propulsive power.
Even if it were to meet the contracted requirements, these are based on threats from a past era.
The world has moved on and left the JSF in it's dust.
I will take what you call optimism that is obviously based on considered thinking over blind faith founded naivety, any day!
Even all things being equal allowing for the advantages of one to counter the advantages of the other, I belive the AMRAAM is the achilles heel as it is fast being matched or outclassed.
For me, based on my limited understanding, for the F35 to survive a BVR engagement, let alone be victorious, against mature threats, currently in development, the primary BVR weapon will need to have increased range & a higher kill probability to take advantage of the F35's reduced front aspect RCS & the detection ability of the APG81.
Thoughts?
sonfulI laugh hard at the irony of you lot labelling GF, AD, Bonza et al as "sycophants". Stones & glass houses people!
Magoo
" you lot "?
That is not Magoo, he speaks english and can spell.Unless he has been drinking?
Stop picking on me Atticus or I might cry...
Cyber-bully? Right... AD's an IT guy? He told us all he's a police officer, not an IT guy nor a DMO guy but you probably know better than him.
GF's a project manager at DMO and Abe Gubler is a reporter. Obviously you have a problem with DT mate, but the rules unlike most forums are written in full and available to anyone who care to read them. We try to stick to them but hey no-one's perfect. No-one has ever been banned there for disagreeing with a mod though, only ublicly breaking the rules.
As for our mod status, it's a function of VBulletin forum software mate, not something I or anyone else has chosen. Ask Eric about it, he's a mod at F-16.net. They use the same software. These forums all use similar terms to donote the"rank" ie: "posting experience" of the individual poster, it's not some sort of rank structure.
I kimd of get the feeling that facts aren't really all that important to you though, lord knows your opinions don't seem influenced bybthem so I'll leave it there. Sorry Eric, last time I'll pollute the comments section this way.
Bonza
"I kimd of get the feeling that facts aren't really all that important to you though, lord knows your opinions don't seem influenced bybthem "
Pot calling kettle black.Facts and those mentioned do not equate in any way.
Your lack of ability to exhibit intellectual honesty is staggering.
It was me, but the bloody visual verification word failed the first time, and I wrote it in the comment field the second time...
I'll know better to proof my posts before posting in future!
Magoo
Oh, and by "you lot", I mean the APA sycophants who claim those who believe in the program are "sycophants".
There's just a slight hint of irony there...
Magoo
If it was Magoo, I am deeply upset at such nonsense.
You have defended APA on numerous occasions, for their researched and informative articles.
Those who question the program have every right to, as the preponderence of evidence does point to an inevitable failure, and APA do set out facts figures and considered argument.
Most/all of those who tend to personally attack APA(more the founders) and it's contributors have NEVER produced researched and properly argued counter points.
They follow each other and are sycophants in the true meaning of the word.They remain anonymous as is the usual case for such people.
If you disagree with what any publication says, reply in an informed and researched manner.
"Sorry Eric, last time I'll pollute the comments section this way. "
Let us hope so.Thanks for the hands up Bonza.
I have just read the comments on DT by Bonza,Gubler, ADMK2,and other misfits, and what a revolting condescending rude arrogant bunch of less than normal human beings.
Those who disagree are called "stupid" etc etc. I have never in my life seen such a display. I would encourage those interested to look at the blogs commented on by these cretins.Make up your own minds.
Apparently they all have titles , such as major, General etc,and I wonder if they actually dress up in uniform before turning on the computer. More thtan likely. I wonder where one hand is located whilst the other is on the keyboard.
Atkinson
What a strange, pathetic little mind you have Atticus. Enjoy your fantasies mate. A curious situation that you are hanging out at the bottom of a thread all alone, discussing military uniforms and masturbation fetishes...
I'm just going to back slowly out of the room now. Don't want to upset the crazy person...
Wait...what? You're deeply upset that I am calling some of you out on your hypocracy?
Me thinks you get "deeply upset" a little too easily.
Oh, and you seem to have me at an advantage in that you appear to know who I am, and yet I don't know who you are???
Magoo
"Hypocrisy "
Bonza , was not me but I concuur with the comments. People who award themselves titles, wear uniforms and act as bullies obiviously have deep problems and a spare hand.
Have a look at the derogatory and demeaning remarks made by you and others about those who have a different point of view on that site.DT.
Abe Gubler a Journo, I can not see any regular publications?
Gf0012, part of the deeply flawed and failed organisation called the DMO? 7,500 employees, a budget of 1.2 billion of public funds to do whatt? Fail.He has no right to offer informed opinion.
AD, part of another failed orgaisation, with deeply flawed leadership, unable to do a proper job.
Just found the theme song for Bonza, and mates.This is the best way to show your attitude regarding the opinions of others.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxvjHDmmJoA&feature=player_detailpage
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